341 List of MANY False Church leaders. These are not REAL Christians, Prophets, Teachers etc. This is Revealed, by their Ecumenical and Heretical commitments

Page 341

Multitude List, of MANY Unbiblical False Church leaders, who are teaching terrible UNGODLY Bible Stuff. These are not REAL Christians, Prophets, Teachers etc. This is Revealed, by their Ecumenical and Heretical, TRULY ANTIGOD commitments

My own views, are always only influenced, by the Bible – as clearly spoken to us, by God/Jesus.

Monday, 6 December 2 0 1 0,  2 0th April 2 0 2 1,   and on 2 9 May 2 0 2 2

This Page, may possibly be, my most powerful message.   This specific message, is being read/opened by far more people, than any other message on this whole BLOG.  It is obviously, the BEST well read message.

I have now gone through, this whole massive Blog page, and made it even easier to read.  I have changed it slightly, by improving the wording of some elements.  I have not changed what is said, but made it easier to read. I have also improved the colouring, to make it easier, too.

The changes have been made, on the 2 0th to 2 1st April 2 0 2 1  and now in  2 9 May 2 0 2 2.

These changes, now, have improved the whole Blog – and reveal the truth better. This should enlarge, your better experience. Especially what is getting people’s attention, is the largest list given anywhere else, of all the multitude troublesome False Christian Leaders – in the World.

By the way, I will explain Three things here, but other explanations – may appear in other places.

First:

Apostate. Means to follow a False Christian religion, preaching some close good things, but they are very false. They are a terrible religion, pretending to be good, but are actually very bad. Apostacy, usually covers everything that is bad

Second:

Ecumenical.  Basically this means to be a Roman, Catholic Church follower.

Third:

Heretical/Heresy. This means a False Christian belief. If followed, will lead to deception, within the Faith. Heresy does not cover everything, like in Apostacy, but covers just certain issues.

I will now carry on, about other things.

All the words, now appear in the centre of the page, so easier to read. They are no longer stuck on the left. They are also now, slightly larger, so easier to read.

Please be aware, that while I made the changes to the LIVE DOCUMENT, by keeping it – in PUBLISHED, you may have received too many messages. But because of this Blog Page seriousness, I needed to keep it live.

We therefore, needed to temporarily face this problem, as a one off – until my completion, of now. Sorry for that.

Further Explanations 7 Jan 2 0 1 1 and 3 Aug 2 0 1 6.

I now notice, that Readers have not understood (very well), my earlier message – about:

– False Teachers

– Ecumenical Followers

– Heretical Leaders etc.

The misunderstanding was clear to me. It was seen, from all the poor responses, that I kept receiving. This was since this article was written. Obviously, I now need to write things clearer.

I will now go through the message again, and try to make it even better, and easier to read.

This I first started recently, in March, during the year 2 0 2 1. But not that much, was changed at that time. All that changed, was mostly better explanations, and some other details added.

Please note, that this whole message, did already give best reasons – for this article being written.

This until now contained very recent dates, of these:  3rd Aug 2 0 1 9,  April 2 0 2 0 and 3rd March 2 0 2 1.  I now make a few other changes in April 2 0 2 1, to improve the reading quality, even more.

Please click on these, following 2 shortcut links, to read them: link 1  link 2

My message, written in December 2 0 1 0

Background To Why The Twentieth Century Evangelical Church Became Apostate

Chronological Emergence Of The Apostate Church Over Last 100 Years

Jesus said, that we should watch out, for false prophets. He stated, that we would know them, by their Fruits. The context of Matthew 7, indicates, He is referring mostly to the WORDS they speak. Please click on this shortcut link.

Do Not Judge, But Watch Out For False Prophets, Matthew 7 Explanation

We are instructed, as follows, to not judge – but watch out for False Teaching.

1 Corinthians 4:4-5

Therefore, I cannot produce a list of False Teachers/prophets, based on just behaviour. I need to reveal many more things, like what I write now.

Behaviour can easily be misunderstood. I need to produce a clear list, based on False Teaching.

However,  I do not always know, what each individual teaches. It is rather difficult to measure, if a person is False, or not.

BUT, we do have plenty of information, about False Heretical Organisations (available to us) – including what they teach, and what is indeed false.

So presumably, most leaders of those bad organisations, will Teach and Practice – False Things. My list reflects this. I wanted to make everyone aware, of the leaders, who are attached to these False Groups.

The whole of the above, has now been fully read, and looked at by me – in April 2 0 2 1.  However, a part of it, was also slightly changed – in March 2 0 2 1.

The wording below, lists all the organisations, that have led the church – down the road of the Apostate. They are all Ecumenical groups.

However, that list does not mean, that absolutely everybody listed – is definitely these things, and listed as a:

– False Leader

– False Teacher

– False Prophet

But there should be serious concern, because of the “Faulty Organisations mentioned”, of what they:

– Belong to

– Associate with (see note below re “associate”)

– Work for

– Endorse

– Support.

Updated 10 Dec 2 0 1 0, and 5th March 2 0 2 1

However, it is always possible, that some individuals – may be ignorant about:

– The groups they speak at

– Who they associate with, or endorse.

Some of these leaders, may later regret, what they have done. They may even, have withdrawn their names of support, if possible.

I would be more concerned, if these people, still deliberately JOIN these bad groups (or remain with them) – even though, the groups have been exposed, as being Apostate/ Ecumenical.

We should be careful, to not be too harsh, on those who are only linked – to one group. Remember, they may have done this in ignorance. However, those who are attached/involved seriously, in more than one group – would cause us all, much Extra Concern.

Added 12 Jan 2 0 1 1

What I mean by “Associate/Attached/Involved With”

If a church leader, is simply having fellowship, with another teacher – from that teachers bad organisation, without endorsing or teaching their doctrines, that is usually/relatively okay.

But they should never knowingly, start joining in, with that Ecumenical group – in a unification process. Neither should they lead their church, down that bad path.

They should not join those bad groups, or teach the Ecumenical doctrine. This would be, a terribly bad association.

It is this type of association, that I am warning against. So, if (so called):

– Teachers

– Leaders

– Prophets

And other encouraging believers, join these Ecumenical or New Age groups, then their Association with these groups – is cause of real concern.

My meaning of ASSOCIATION, is related to “with individuals”, who have given their allegiance – to Ecumenical groups, like: Westminster Declaration, and Manhattan Declaration.

Everyone listed, has absolutely associated (in a bad sense), with an Ecumenical – or New Age, infected organisation.

Additional Info:

By the way, I have just realised an interesting fact.  I will be writing something more on this, in due course.  But, I will just say something on this, briefly now.

Many leaders amongst the groups mentioned, were first trained or lectured, at Fullers Theological Seminary.

This Seminary, majors on Church growth, but is strongly Ecumenical – with New Age ideas.

Therefore, it is not surprising, that a new brand of church leaders – would be produced. These would emerge, leading our churches, in the same direction – that they want.

So it appears, that Fullers are a major reason, for the Evangelical Church’s speedy fall – into increasing Apostasy.

By the way, Apostasy means, falling away from the truth – into Heresy.

Anyway, here are the full lists, of all the Heretical Ecumenical Organisations – within the “Evangelical” umbrella. It also includes, individual leading associates.

This is, as they stand at the moment, on 1 8 Jan 2 0 1 1 – as follows. Mind you, please be informed, that the lists – are still a work in progress. They will be changed, as and when, I have more details.

Groups

– Latter Rain

– Manifest Sons Of God

– Fullers Theological Seminary

– Word of Faith

– Shepherding  Movement

– Restoration and House Church Movement

– New Frontiers

– Spring Harvest

– New Breed

– Joel’s Army

– New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)

– Third Wave Movement

– Vineyard

– Toronto Blessing

– Pensacola and Lakeland Revivals

– Alpha

– Kingsway International Church (KICC)

– TBN

– Seeker Friendly

– Purpose Driven (Rick Warren)

– Emerging Church

– Hillsong

– Promise-Keepers

– Renovaré

– Elijah List (list of prophetic Ministries)

– Manhattan Declaration

– Westminster 2 0 1 0 Declaration

– THE MESSAGE endorsers

– Jerusalem Prayer Team

– Lausanne Movement (founded By Billy Graham)

– International Apostolic Council (IAC)

– International Coalition of Apostles (ICA)

– Mission America Coalition (MAC)

– American Society for Church Growth (ASCG)

– Evangelicals and Catholics Together 1 9 9 4

The list of leaders below, replaces a list, that I previously gave. This older list, used to appear on this earlier article, called:

“List and Details on Other False Teachers and Prophets”

This was compiled on  RR’s website (not on mine).

I had to remove the RR list, as I found it too questionable, to retain. Please note, that the website article itself, still exists – and retains some very useful information. It has shortcut links, which complement this article. So it would still be good, to refer to it.

Leaders:

Before you look at the list of leaders table (alphabetical order), please familiarise yourselves, with a few pointers.

Note

“Emerging Church Links”

This is based, on list found on:

http://www.buzzardhut.net/index/htm

entitled as:

– CENTERING PRAYER

– CHURCH GROWTH

– CONTEMPLATIVE SPIRITUALITY

– EMERGING CHURCH

– LABYRINTH

– MYSTICISM

– PURPOSE DRIVEN

Terrible and bad groups, are listed above here, twice.  These are in Pink.  Please also see larger BLACK LIST below here. These are mostly, all opposed to Israel being saved, in latter times.

Their false teachings, all assume, that the end has already happened to Israel – and any suggestion, that Israel is re-emerging, is all force they reckon.

They falsely believe, that it is not Israel who are emerging, but something false instead –  and is pretence.

I have written, in many places on this Blog, proving the real TRUTH – about ISRAEL, and why these other thoughts, are completely wrong. I now proclaim, that Israel are truly becoming, a new Nation again. My messages reveal, the real things happening.

Please bear in mind, that the last 3 paragraphs above here (green/red/brown), need to be seriously considered first – before looking at this next list.

Remember, those who oppose, and seek to remove Israel – are possibly, in serious opposition to God.

Please now look at this massive list, of poor/bad Christian organisations, and individual people – who support these organisations.

We need to ask this serious, and important question! Why do these people, support these bad organisations, listed below here?

Abbreviated Category (alphabetical order)	Represents Bad Organisations, called:
ASCG	American Society for Church Growth
ECT	Evangelicals and Catholics Together 1994 Signed  Ecumenical Document
FL5 and SM	Fort Lauderdale 5 and Shepherding Movement
Fullers	Graduated or  Faculty (Lectured) at Fullers Theological Seminary
IAC	International Apostolic Council
ICA	International Coalition of Apostles (Council Membership)
JPT	Jerusalem Prayer Team
LM	Lausanne Movement
MAC	Missions America Coalition
MD	signed the ecumenical Manhattan Declaration
Message	endorsed  “The Message” Counterfeit Bible
NAR	New Apostolic Reformation
PK	endorsed/speaker of Promise Keepers
SH	Spring Harvest
TB	Toronto Blessing
WD	Signed ecumenical Westminster Declaration
WPC	World Prayer Centre Leader
TEACHER, PROPHET, LEADER (Listed by Surname in alphabetical order)	GROUPS that they: ARE MOST COMMONLY LINKED WITH, i.e. WHO THEY LEAD, WORK FOR, ENDORSE, SUPPORT, OR ASSOCIATE WITH
Dave Adams	New Frontiers
Julian Adams	New Frontiers
Miriam Adeney	LM
Doug Addison	Elijah List
Che Ahn	ICA, Elijah List, MD
Daniel Akin	MD
Randy Alcorn	MD
Joe Aldrich	MAC member
Rory and Wendy Alec	God TV, Elijah List
Michael Nazir Ali	WD
Lon Allison	MAC vice chairman
Beth Alves	Elijah List
Joni Ames	Elijah List
David Anderson	MD
Julie Anderson	WD
L Anderson	Fullers (graduated), Message, LM, MD, MAC Board
Alan Andrews	MAC Board
Ian Andrews	Elijah List
Ernest Angley	Word Faith
Gleason Archer	Fullers (Faculty)
Don Argue	MAC member
Charles Arn	ASCG Past President
Carol Arnott	Latter Rain, NAR, TB, Elijah List
John Arnott	Latter Rain, NAR, TB, Alpha Supporter, Elijah List
Kay Arthur	MD
Matthew Ashimolowo	Word Faith. KICC,
Yemisi Ashimolowo	Word Faith. KICC,
Paul Ashton	WD
David Augsburger	Fullers (Faculty)
Liz Babbs	Emerging Church Links
Mark L. Bailey	MD
George Bakalov	ICA
Heidi Baker	Elijah List
Jim and Lori Bakker	Elijah List
Colin Baron	New Frontiers
Karl Barth	Emerging Church
Ruth Haley Barton	Emerging Church Links
Don Basham	FL5 and SM
Gary Bauer	MD
Ern Baxter	FL5 and SM
Bob Beckett	Latter Rain, Joels Army
Rob Bell	Fullers (Graduated), Emerging Church,
John Belt	Elijah List
Todd Bentley	Joels Army, New Breed, NAR,
John Bevere	Word Faith, Hillsong Speaker
Mike Bickle	Latter Rain, New Breed, NAR, TB, Alpha Supporter, Elijah List, Emerging Church Links
Adrian Birks	New Frontiers
Markus Bishop	Word Faith
Tim Blaber	New Frontiers
Paul and Cheryl Black	Elijah List
Henry Blackaby	PK Leader
Bishop Charles E. Blake	JPT
William Blake	Emerging Church
Ken Blanchard	Emerging Church Links
Ron Blue	PK Speaker
Ken Boa	MD
Ryan Bolger	Fullers (Faculty), Emerging Church
Shawn Bolz	Elijah List
Dietrich Bonhoeffer	Emerging Church
Reinhard Bonnke	Word Faith, MAC member
Wellington Boone	PK Leader, Message
Marcus Borg	Emerging Church
David Bosch	Emerging Church
Cynthia Bourgeault	Emerging Church
Lyndon Bowring	Elim, WD
Gregory Boyd	Emerging Church
Steve Brady	WD
William Branham	Latter Rain Founder, Manifest Sons Of God
Randy & Sarah Brannon	MD
Barbie Breathitt	Elijah List
James Brenneman	Fullers (Graduated)
Bill Bright	Fullers (Graduated), PK Speaker, JPT, ECT
Mrs. Vonette Bright	MAC member
Stuart and Jill Briscoe	Message
Troy Bronsink	Emerging Church Links
Peter Brooks	New Frontiers
Colin Brown	Fullers (Faculty)
Warren S. Brown	Fullers (Faculty)
Walter Brueggemann	Emerging Church
Jamie Buckingham	Renovare Board
Frederick Buechner	Message
Bob Buford	Emerging Church Links
Isak Burger	LM
Edward Buria	New Frontiers
Spencer Burke	Emerging Church
Jim Burns	Message
Glenn Burris, Jr	MAC Board
Luis Bush	MAC member
Nick Butterworth	Restoration
Dave Butts	MAC Board
Roger Bye	New Frontiers
Juanita Bynum	Word Faith
Christine Caine	Hillsong Speaker
Paul Cain	Latter Rain, Manifest Sons Of God, NAR
Clive Calver	SH, MAC member
Wes and Stacey Campbell	Elijah List
Tony Campolo	Emerging Church, SH, TB, Alpha Supporter, Renovare Board, Message
Peter J. Cannon	MAC member
Michael Card	Message
George Carey	Alpha Supporter, WD
G. Raymond Carlson	Renovare Board
Edward John Carnell	Fullers (Faculty)
Michael Cassidy	LM
Paul Cedar	MAC Chairman
Morris Cerullo	Word Faith
Steve Chalke	Emerging Church, SH
Willie Champion	MAC Board
Bryan Chapell	LM, MD
Gary Chapman	Message
Pierre Teilhard de Chardin	Emerging Church
Martin Charlesworth	New Frontiers
Nick Chatrath	New Frontiers
Mahesh & Bonnie Chavda	Elijah List
Michel & Natalie Chevalier	Elijah List
Mark Chironna	ICA
Tapiwa Chizana	New Frontiers
James Chosa	ICA
Shane Claiborne	Emerging Church
Patsy Clairmont	Message
Heather Clark	Elijah List
Nolan Clark	Latter Rain, Joels Army, Elijah List
Randy Clark	Latter Rain, NAR, Word Faith, Elijah List
Stephen Clark	Catholic renewalists joined Fort Lauderdale 5
Gary Clarke	Hillsong Speaker
Philip Clayton	Fullers (Graduated)
Kim Clement	Word Faith, Elijah List
Anita Cleverly	WD
Steve Clifford	WD
Denny and Ann Cline	Vineyard, Elijah List
Timothy Clinton	MD
Gerald Coates	Restoration, Pioneer Network Leader, TB, Alpha Supporter, WD
Chris Cole	WD
Edward Cole	PK Leader
Bob Coleman	MAC Board
Jim Collins	Emerging Church Links
Chuck Colson	PK Speaker, MD, MAC member, ECT (Co-Signer)
Bobby Conner	Elijah List
Gordon-Conwell	PK Speaker
Graham Cooke	Elijah List
Barney Coombs	Restoration, Salt and Light Leader
Kenneth Copeland	Word Faith, Message, JPT
John Corts	MAC member
Ron Cottle	ICA
Paul and Donna Cox	Elijah List
Larry Crabb	PK Speaker, Emerging Church Links
Denny Cramer	Elijah List
Andy Crouch	Emerging Church
Jan Crouch	TBN
Paul Crouch	Word Faith, TBN
John Crowder	Latter Rain, NAR
Loren Cunningham	LM, MAC member
Jim Daly	LM, MD
Kimberly Daniels	Elijah List
Paul K Davis	New Breed, Elijah List
John Dawson	Latter Rain, Joels Army, NAR, PK Speaker
Joy Dawson	Latter Rain, NAR
Jack Deere	Latter Rain, NAR
Eric Delve	SH
Martin DeHaan	MAC member
Danny de León	MAC Board
Mark DeMoss	PK Leader
Karl Dennis	KICC
Jacques Derrida	Emerging Church
David Devenish	New Frontiers
James Dobson	PK, MD, MAC member
Shirley Dobson	MAC member
Creflo Dollar	Word Faith
Steve Douglass	LM, MAC Board
Naomi Dowdy	ICA
James T. Draper	JPT
Dave Dravecky	Message
Mark Driscoll	Emerging Church Links, New Frontiers
Phil Driscoll	Message
Malcolm Duncan	SH
Maxie D Dunnam	MAC member
Martyn Dunsford	New Frontiers
Jesse Duplantis	Word Faith
Colin Dye	Elim links with Latter Rain and Word Faith
Joni Eareckson Tada	Message, MD
John Eckhardt	ICA, Elijah List
Meister Eckhart	Emerging Church Links
Joel Edwards	New Frontiers, SH, EA, Alpha Supporter
Tilden Edwards	Emerging Church
Garris Elkins	Elijah List
Ray Ellis	ASCG Past President
Gordon England	PK Leader
Lou Engle	Elijah List
Ted W. Engstrom	Renovare Board, MAC member
Aaron Evans	Elijah List
Louis Evans	MAC member
Mike Evans	Elijah List
Tony Evans	PK Speaker
Jerry Falwell	PK Speaker, JPT
Jeff Farmer	MAC Board
Gary Fawver	Renovare Board
Gordon Fee	Message
Richard Felix	Renovare Board
Ana Mendez-Ferrell	Elijah List
Emerson Mendez-Ferrell	Elijah List
Dave Fickett	Message
Edward L Foggs	MAC member
Ken Fong	LM
Leighton Ford	TB, Alpha Supporter, Message, LM, MAC member
Theresa Forkins-Phillips	Elijah List
Faith Forster	Restoration, Renovare Board
Roger Forster	Restoration, Ichthus Leader, TB, Alpha Supporter, Renovare Board
Richard Foster	Fullers (Faculty), Emerging Church, Renovare Founder, Message,
George Fox	Emerging Church Links
Matthew Fox	Emerging Church
Pat Francis	ICA
Francis Frangipane	Latter Rain, Joels Army, NAR, Elijah List
Jentezen Franklin	Hillsong Speaker
William C. Frey	Renovare Board
Millard Fuller	Renovare Board, MAC member
Bill and Gloria Gaither	Message
Henry Gariepy	Renovare Board
Joseph Garlington	PK Leader, Elijah List
Carl F. George	ASCG Past President
Timothy George	LM
Eddie Gibbs	Fullers (Faculty), Emerging Church, ASCG Past President
Livy Gibbs	New Frontiers
Ken Gire	Emerging Church Links
John Glass	Elim, Links with New Age, WD
Martin Goldsmith	WD
James & Michal Ann Goll	Elijah List
Dr. Goodwill Shana	New Frontiers
Richard Gorsuch	Fullers (Faculty)
Ken Gott	TB, Alpha Supporter
Billy Graham	Fullers (Trustees Board), PK Speaker (taped messages at events), LM (Founder), Message, MAC member
Franklin Graham	PK Speaker
Jack Graham	JPT, MD
Amy Grant	Message
Robert Grant	Fullers (Graduated)
Joel B. Green	Fullers (Faculty)
Lynn Green	WD
Phillip Greenslade	New Frontiers
Pete Greig	Emerging Church Links
Emilie Griffin	Emerging Church Links
Vernon Grounds	Message
John Groves	New Frontiers
Wayne Grudem	New Frontiers
John Guest	MAC member
Os Guinness	LM
Kenn Gulliksen	Vineyard
Nicky Gumbel	Alpha Leader, TB, Hillsong Speaker
Madam Guyon	Emerging Church
Ted Haggard	Latter Rain, Joels Army, NAR
Kenneth E Hagin	Word Faith (father of movement)
Kenneth W Hagin Jnr	Word Faith
Bill Hamon	Latter Rain,  NAR, ICA, Elijah List
Jane Hansen	MAC member
Michael Harper	Renovare Board
Greg Haslam	New Frontiers
Matt Hatch	New Frontiers
Gary Haugen	LM
Jack W. Hayford	TB, Alpha Supporter, PK Regular Speaker, Renovare Speaker, Message, JPT, LM, MAC member
David Hazard	Emerging Church Links
Keith Hazell	New Frontiers
Jack and Cynthia Heald	Message
Larry Helyer	Fullers (Graduated)
Ken Hemphill	MAC Board
Howard Hendricks	PK Speaker
James B Henry	MAC member
Les Henson	Fullers (Graduated)
Roberta Hestenes	Renovare Board
Marilyn Hickey	Word Faith
Andy Hickford	SH
Robert Hicks	PK Speaker
Scott Hicks	Elijah List
Alec Hill	MD, MAC member
Clifford and Monica Hill	WD
E.V. Hill.	PK Speaker
Steve Hill	Latter Rain, NAR, Pensacola
Benny Hinn	New Breed, Word Faith, Message
Dean Hirsch	LM
C B Hogue	MAC member
Tom Hohstadt	Emerging Church
David Holden	New Frontiers
Liz Holden	New Frontiers
Simon Holley	New Frontiers
Adrian Holloway	New Frontiers
David Hope	Alpha Supporter
John Hosier	New Frontiers
Matt Hosier	New Frontiers
Sue Hosier	New Frontiers
Judith Hougen	Emerging Church Links
Bobbie Houston	Hillsong Speaker
Brian Houston	Hillsong Founder and Speaker
Rodney Howard-Browne	Latter Rain, Word Faith, TB, Elijah List
David Hubbard	Fullers (Faculty)
Larry Huch	Word Faith
John A Huffman Jr	MAC member
Ray Hughes	Elijah List
Hannah Hunard	Emerging Church Links
George Hunter III	ASCG Past President
Kent R Hunter	ASCG Past President
Theresa Hurlbert	Elijah List
Sterling Huston	MAC Board
Bill Hybels	Seeker Friendly, TB, Alpha Supporter, PK Speaker, Emerging Church Links, Message
Bill Jackson	Vineyard
John Paul Jackson	Latter Rain, NAR
Harry Jackson Jr	Elijah List
Cindy Jacobs	Latter Rain, Joels Army, NAR, Elijah List
T.D. Jakes	Word Faith, Hillsong Speaker, JPT
Jerry Jenkins	Message
Willie Jennings	Fullers (Graduated)
Paul Jewett	Fullers (Faculty)
Kate and Paul Jinadu	WD
Bill Johnson	Latter Rain, NAR, Elijah List
Jan Johnson	Emerging Church Links
Andy Johnston	New Frontiers
Alan Jones	Emerging Church Links
Bob Jones	Latter Rain,  NAR, Elijah List
Bonnie Jones	Elijah List
Bryn Jones	Restoration
Laurie Beth Jones	Emerging Church Links
Tony Jones	Fullers (Graduated), Emerging Church
Rick Joyner	Latter Rain, NAR. New Breed, Elijah List, Knight of Malta
Carl Jung	Emerging Church
Dan Juster	ICA
Stephen Kaberia	New Frontiers (Kenya)
Walter Kaiser Jr	Message
Veli-Matti Kärkkäinen	Fullers (Faculty)
Reese R. Kauffman	MAC member
Malcolm Kayes	New Frontiers
Thomas Keating	Emerging Church
Tim Keller	LM
Gerard Kelly	SH
John P Kelly	ICA (2010 Presiding Apostle), IAC
Morton Kelsey	Emerging Church Links
R.T. Kendall	Alpha Supporter
Billy and Caroline Kennedy	Restoration Link, National Churches Forum UK (Leader)
Ron Kenoly	Message
Carol Kent	Message
Keri Wyatt Kent	Emerging Church Links
E.W. Kenyon	Originator of Word Faith Teachings (leading to Kenneth E Hagan’s  becoming “father” of that movement)
Jay Kesler	Message
Lawrence Khong	IAC
Sue Monk Kidd	Emerging Church Links
Søren Kierkegaard	Emerging Church
John Kilpatrick	Latter Rain, NAR
Billy Kim	PK Speaker
Joon Gon Kim	Fullers (Graduated)
Dan Kimball	Emerging Church
Tim Kimmel	Message
Patricia King	Latter Rain, NAR, Elijah List
Dennis Kinlaw	MAC member
Immanuel Kinoti	New Frontiers(Kenya)
Kiogora	New Frontiers (Kenya)
Jerry R. Kirk	Renovare Board
Denny Kline	Latter Rain, Joels Army
Mark Knoll	ECT
Stephen Gitonga Kobia	New Frontiers (Kenya)
Clarence A. Kopp, Sr.	Renovare Board
Alex Kpikpi	New Frontiers
John Kpikpi	New Frontiers
Charles H. Kraft	Fullers (Faculty), Third Wave
George Eldon Ladd	Fullers (Faculty)
Tim and Beverly LaHaye	JPT, MAC members,
Anne Lamont	Emerging Church
Richard Land	ECT
Beverley Landreth-Smith	New Frontiers
Curt Landry	Elijah List
Paul Larsen	MAC member
Greg Laurie	PK Speaker
William Law	Emerging Church Links
Vinton Lee	PK Leader
Anderson Lekesike	New Frontiers(Kenya)
Madeleine L’Engle	Message
Robert Lenguliai	New Frontiers (Kenya)
David LeShana	Renovare Board
C.S. Lewis	Emerging Church
Larry Lewis	MAC Board, ECT
David Lillie	Restoration
Bishop Nathaniel Linsey	MAC member
Stef Liston	New Frontiers
Duane Litfin	LM
Lex Loizides	New Frontiers
H. B. London, Jr	PK Leader, Renovare
Bishop Eddie L. Long	Word Faith
Tremper Longman III	Message
Peter Lord	Renovare Board
Ray Lowe	New Frontiers
T.L. Lowery	JPT
Max Lucado	PK Speaker, Message, MAC member
Martha Lucia	Elijah List
Keith and Sanna Luker	Elijah List
Carl H. Lundquist	Renovare Board
Peter Lyne	Restoration
Gordon MacDonald	Message
Hugh Maclellan	LM
Nancy Magiera	Elijah List
Peter Maiden	SH, WD
Al Maingi	New Frontiers(Kenya)
David & Karen Mains	Renovare Board
Mbonisi Malaba	New Frontiers
Alan Mann	Emerging Church
Judy Littler Manners	WD
Brennan Manning	Emerging Church
David Mansell	Restoration
Jonathan Maracle	Elijah List
Scott Marques	New Frontiers
Ralph Martin	Catholic renewalists joined Fort Lauderdale 5
Martin Marty	Renovare Board
Yaqub Masih	WD
James Earl Massey	MAC member
John Mathison	MAC member
Joseph Mattera	ICA
David Matthew	Restoration
John Maxwell	Fullers (Graduated), Hillsong Speaker, Message, MAC member
Gerald May	Emerging Church Links
John Mbui	New Frontiers (Kenya)
Campbell McAlpine	Restoration
Bill McCartney	PK Top Leader, Vineyard, MAC member
Clarence McClendon	Word Faith
Floyd McClung	SH
Ian McCulloch	Restoration
Gordon MacDonald	Message
Josh McDowell	PK Speaker, MD, MAC member
Ken McGeorge	PK Leader
Cindy McGill	Elijah List
Alistair McGrath	Alpha Supporter
Gary L. McIntosh	ASCG Past President
Paul McKaughan	MAC member
David L. McKenna	Renovare Board
Brian McLaren	Emerging Church, SH
John McLaughlan	Restoration
Hugh Maclellan	LM
Alan McMahan	ASCG Past President
Erwin McManus	Emerging Church
Reeni Mederos	Elijah List
Ana Mendez-Ferrell	Elijah List
Emerson Mendez-Ferrell	Elijah List
Thomas Merton	Emerging Church
Joyce Meyer	Word Faith, Message
Sandy Millar	Alpha Leader, TB
Calvin Miller	Renovare Board, Emerging Church Links
Donald Miller	Emerging Church
Guy Miller	New Frontiers
Keith Miller	Elijah List, Message
Joshua and Janet Mills	Elijah List
Jesse Miranda	LM, ECT
Don Moen	Message
R. Albert Mohler, Jr	MD
Jürgen Moltmann	Emerging Church
Sue Monk Kidd	Emerging Church Links
James Montgomery	MAC member
Beth Moore	Emerging Church
Derek Morphew	Vineyard
Tony Morton	Restoration
Richard Mouw	Fullers (Faculty – Current President), LM, ECT
David Mugambi	New Frontiers (Kenya)
Mel Mullen	ICA
Richard Muller	Fullers (Faculty)
Wayne Muller	Emerging Church Links
Bob Mumford	FL5 and SM
Eleanor Mumford	TB, Vineyard, Alpha Supporter
John Mumford	Vineyard
Myles Munroe	Word Faith, Elijah List
Steve Munsey	Word Faith
Mike Murdock	Word Faith
Ayub Murithi	New Frontiers (Kenya)
Nancey Murphy	Fullers (Faculty)
Michael Mutea	New Frontiers(Kenya)
Sammy Mutiria	New Frontiers(Kenya)
David J. Muyskens	Emerging Church Links
Harold L. Myra	MAC member
Michael Nazir-Ali	WD
Alex Ndombi	New Frontiers (Kenya)
David Neff	LM
Richard John Neuhaus	ECT Catholic Co-Signer
Joseph Njagi	New Frontiers (Kenya)
John Noble	Restoration
Henri Nouwen	Emerging Church, Renovare Board
Nims Obunge	KICC
Peter Ochs	LM
Rt. Hon. Raila Odinga	KICC
Lloyd John Ogilvie	Renovare Board, MAC member
Gary Oliver	PK Speaker
Steve Oliver	New Frontiers
Jonathan Oloyede	WD
Dipo Oluyomi	KICC
Amos Onyango	New Frontiers(Kenya)
J. Edwin Orr	Fuller (Faculty)
John Ortberg	Fullers (Graduated), Emerging Church Links
Juan Carlos Ortiz	PK Speaker
T L Osborn	Latter Rain
Joel Osteen	Word Faith, Hillsong Speaker
George Otis Jr	Latter Rain, Joels Army, NAR
Jane Overstreet	LM
J.I. Packer	Alpha Supporter, Renovare Board, Message, MD, ECT
Doug Pagitt	Emerging Church
Luis Palau	Alpha Supporter, PK Speaker, LM, MAC member
Tom Panich	Elijah List
William Pannell	Renovare Board
Joy Parrott	Elijah List
Les Parrott	Fullers (Graduated)
Roger Parrott	MAC Board
Rod Parsley	Word Faith, Message
Richard Peace	Fullers (Faculty)
Dennis Peacock	ICA, IAC
M. Scott Peck	Emerging Church
Kathy Peel	Message
Basil Pennington	Emerging Church Links
John Perkins	LM, MAC member
Graham Perrins	Restoration
Ben Peters	Elijah List
Eugene H. Peterson	Renovare Board, Emerging Church Links, Author “The Message”
Mark Pfeifer	ICA
Randy Phillip	PK Leader
Jason Phillips	Elijah List
Theresa Forkins-Phillips	Elijah List
Tom Phillips	MAC Board
Chuck Pierce	Latter Rain, NAR, ICA, IAC, Elijah List, WPC Leader
Michael Pierce	Latter Rain, Joels Army
John Piper	Fullers (Graduated), LM, NAR links
Becky Pippert	LM
Sam Poe	New Frontiers
Bill Pollard	LM
John Poole	FL5 and SM
Peter Popoff	Word Faith
Philip Porter	PK Leader
Simon Ponsonby	Vineyard
Don Potter	Elijah List
Fred Price	Word Faith
Paula Price	Elijah List
Derek Prince	FL5 and SM
Joseph Prince	Hillsong Speaker
Mary Pytches	Vineyard
Dennis Rainey	PK Speaker
Rollin Ramsaran	Fullers (Graduated)
Larry Randolph	Elijah List
R. Daniel Reeves	ASCG Past President
Gustave Reininger	Emerging Church Links
Tricia Rhodes	Emerging Church Links
Robert Ricciardelli	Elijah List
Wayne Rice	Message
D. John Richard	MAC member
Rick Ridings	Elijah List
Alberto Rivera	(not Chick Pub Alberto), Elijah List
Kimberly Rivera	Elijah List (not Jack Chick’s Alberto)
John D. Robb	Fullers (Graduated)
Duffy Robbins	Message, Emerging Church Links
Maggie Robbins	Emerging Church Links
Cecil Mel Robeck	Fullers (Faculty)
Oral Roberts	Word Faith, JPT
Pat Robertson	(assumed Word Faith because of his strong links), MAC member, ECT
Haddon Robinson	PK Speaker
Ras Robinson	Elijah List
Tri Robinson	Vineyard
James Robison	PK Speaker
Rick Rogan	Fullers (Graduated)
Adrian Rogers	MAC member
Richard Rohr	Emerging Church Links
Richard Rolle	Emerging Church Links
Rob Rufus	New Frontiers
Ruth Ruibal	Latter Rain, Joels Army
Julio Ruibal	Latter Rain, Joels Army
Rick Ryan	PK Speaker
Thomas Ryan	Emerging Church Links
James Ryle	Vineyard, PK Founder (Spoke 1994)
Rebecca St. James	Message
Philip St. Romain	Emerging Church Links
Will Sampson	Emerging Church Links
John & Paula Sandford	Elijah List
Jerry Savelle	Message
Mark Scandrette	Emerging Church Links
Michael Scanlan	Renovare Board
Pete Scazzero	Emerging Church Links
M. Scott Peck	Emerging Church
Dale Schlafer	PK Leader
David M. Scholer	Fullers (Faculty)
Robert  A Schuller Jnr	Fullers (Graduated), Seeker Friendly
Robert H Schuller Snr	Seeker Friendly, JPT, Emerging Church Links
Chris Seay	Emerging Church
Samir Selmanovic	Emerging Church Links
Peter Senge	Emerging Church Links
Dr. Cory SerVaas	JPT
R.W. Shambach	Word Faith
Dr. Goodwill Shana	New Frontiers
David LeShana	Renovare Board
Nick Sharp	New Frontiers
Luci Shaw	Message
Tom Shaw	New Frontiers
Dutch Sheets	Latter Rain, Joels Army, NAR, Elijah List
Greg Shepherd	New Frontiers
Priscilla Shirer	Hillsong Speaker
David Shosanya	WD
Robert Shuler	See Robert Schuller above
Steve Shultz Leader	Elijah List
Sibs Sibanda	New Frontiers
Ronald J. Sider	Renovare Board
Ed Silvoso	Latter Rain, Joels Army, NAR, ICA, IAC
Brian Simmons	Elijah List
Arthur Simon	Renovare Board
Jeremy Simpkins	New Frontiers
Charles Simpson	FL5 and SM
Kent Simpson	Elijah List
Mary Lance Sisk	MAC Board
Steve Sjogren	Vineyard
Donna Smallenberg	Elijah List
Gary Smalley	PK Speaker, Message
Lewis B. Smedes	Fullers (Faculty), Renovare Board
Chuck Smith Snr ????	PK Speaker Spoke 1994
Chuck Smith Jnr	Emerging Church Links
David Smith	New Frontiers
Don Smith	New Frontiers
Judah Smith	Hillsong Speaker
Maurice Smith	Restoration
Michael W. Smith	Message
Rolland Smith	MAC member
Jim Smoke	PK Speaker
Ashleigh Smyth	New Frontiers
P-J Smyth	New Frontiers
Olave Snelling	WD
Howard A. Snyder	Renovare Board
Matt Sorger	Latter Rain, Joels Army, Elijah List
Dan Southerland	Emerging Church Links
Peter Spencer	Elijah List
Russell P. Spittler	Fullers (Faculty), Renovare Board
Wess Staford	LM
Glen Stassen	Fullers (Faculty)
Richard E. Stearns	MAC member
Dave Steell	SH
John Robert Stevens	Latter Rain, NAR, The Walk
Don Stewart	Word Faith
Mark Stibbe	TB, Alpha Supporter, WD
John Stott	LM
Joseph Stowell	PK Speaker
Karl Strader	Word Faith
David Stroud	New Frontiers, Vineyard, WD
B. V. Subbamma	Fullers (Graduated)
Bill Sullivan	ASCG Past President
Tim Sutherland	Fullers (Graduated)
Jay Swallow	Elijah List
Leonard Sweet	Emerging Church
Chuck Swindoll	PK Speaker, Message, MD
Joni Eareckson Tada	Message, MD
John Michael Talbot	Emerging Church Links
Thomas Talbott	Fullers (Faculty)
George Tarleton	Restoration (later became new ager)
Chad Taylor	Latter Rain, NAR
Mick Taylor	New Frontiers
Wade Taylor	Elijah List
Pierre  Teilhard de Chardin	Emerging Church
Tommy Tenney	Latter Rain, NAR
Brock and Bodie Thoene	Message
Gary Thomas	Emerging Church Links
Hugh Thompson	Restoration
Marianne Meye Thompson	Fullers (Faculty)
Tony Thompson	New Frontiers
Tite Tienou	LM
Robert Tilton	Word Faith
Mike Timmis	PK Speaker, a Roman Catholic and PK board member
Paul Tokunaga	LM
Elmer Towns	ASCG Past President
Patricia Treece	Emerging Church Links
Mike Treneer	LM
John Trent	PK Speaker
Ingrid Trobisch	Renovare Board
Richard Twiss	Latter Rain, NAR, Elijah List
Tommy Tyson	Renovare Board
Evelyn Underhill	Emerging Church Links
Jason Upton	Latter Rain, Joels Army, Elijah List
Kris Vallotton	Elijah List
Charles VanEngen	ASCG Past President
Stephen Van Rhyn	New Frontiers
William Vaswig	Renovare Founder
John Vaughan	ASCG Past President
Alexander Venter	Vineyard
Joel Virgo	New Frontiers
Terry Virgo	Restoration, New Frontiers Leader
Wendy Virgo	New Frontiers
Miroslav Volf	Fullers (Faculty), Emerging Church
Berten A. Waggoner	Vineyard
C. Peter Wagner	Fullers (Faculty), Latter Rain, Joels Army, New Breed, NAR, ICA (Ex Presiding Apostle), IAC, TB, Alpha Supporter, Renovare Board, Elijah List, WPC Leader, MAC Member, ASCG Founding President
Doris Wagner	ICA
E Glenn Wagner	PK Leader
Todd Wagner	MD
Simon Walker	New Frontiers
Jim Wallace	SH
Arthur Wallis	Restoration
Lance Wallnau	ICA
Brian Walsh	Emerging Church
David and Kathie Walters	Elijah List
Thomas Wang	Renovare Board, MAC member
Walter Wangerin	Message
Karen Ward	Emerging Church Links
Sandy Warner	Elijah List
George Warnock	Latter Rain, Manifest Sons Of God
Neil Clark Warren	Fullers (Faculty)
Rick Warren	Fullers (Graduated), New Breed, Seeker Friendly, Emerging Church Links, Message, LM, MAC member
Raleigh Washington	PK Leader
Robert Webber	Emerging Church, Renovare Board
Barbara Wentroble	Elijah List
James White	Fullers (Graduated)
John White	ECT
John Wesley-White	PK Speaker
Mel White	Fullers (Faculty)
Paula White	Word Faith
Luder Whitlock Jr	MAC member
Warren Wiersbe	Message
Richard B. Wilke	Renovare Board
David Wilkerson	JPT
Bruce Wilkinson	PK Speaker, MAC member
Dallas Willard	Emerging Church, Renovare
Andrea Williams	WD
Don Williams	Vineyard
Pat Williams	Message
Rowan Williams	Emerging Church
Andrew Wilson	New Frontiers
Billy Wilson	MAC Board
H. Daniel Wilson	ICA
Ken Wilson	Vineyard
Peter Wilson	Hillsong Speaker
Phil Wilthew	New Frontiers
John Wimber	Fullers (Faculty), NAR, Vineyard, TB, Alpha Supporter, Renovare Board
Lauren Winner	Emerging Church Links
Ralph Winter	MAC member
Sharnael Wolverton	Elijah List
George Wood	LM
Paul Woolley	New Frontiers
N.T. Wright	Emerging Church
Dennis Wrigley	WD
Keri Wyatt Kent	Emerging Church Links
Mark Yaconelli	Emerging Church Links
Mike Yaconelli	Message
Flavil Yeakley, Jr	ASCG Past President
Barbara Yoder	Elijah List
Les Yoder	Vineyard, Elijah List
Paul (David) Yongi Cho	Word Faith, JPT
Ed Young	Word Faith
Ed Young Jnr	Hillsong Speaker
Paul Young	MD
Bill Yount	Elijah List
Michael Youssef	MD
Anthony C. Yu	Fullers (Graduated)
Ravi Zacharias	MAC member

Posted by John Chingford at 6: 3 1 pm

Labels: Ecumenical Organisations LIST, False Teachers and Prophets, Heresy Watch, Rise Of Apostasy

 

John Chingford said…

The major essence below has not been changed.  I will change the below later, once I have time and can.  The reason for the delay, is because there are as many as 1 2 6 comments, to go through.

The start of the below (but not everything) was written before my accident in 2 0 1 7.

 

1 2 6 Comments

 

Tony Cox said…

 

Hi John

Very good article.

 

So many people are “afraid” to name names, these days. Thanks for all your hard work. I realize the list does not include everyone out there, but I don’t see Perry Stone listed.

 

He has really gained a lot of fame, and notoriety with the TBN crowd, over the last few years.

1 1: 0 0 am, December 0 9,   2 0 1 0

 

John Chingford Said:

Thanks Tony.

The lists I have produced, were from searching on those faulty organisations.  I found the names from within each individual organisation.  I simply compiled all the names (from all those different heretical, ecumenical organisations) into one complete list. 

In this way, I could be sure, that my first list would be more reliable – in naming  False church  leaders.  Especially those, who are heavily involved, in the worst organisations – or caught up in more than one.

 

This type of list, would be more useful, than any other type of list – to assist people, in making up their own minds. That is, in checking out the leaders associations, rather than just simply be told – that this or that person is false.

 

Regarding Perry Stone. 

As of yet, he has not been listed on any of those sites, that I looked at. This article is still a work-in-progress, and he may appear later.

 

I guess one problem with this list is that there may be false leaders who are not directly committed to any of those groups but may work with them. Those (like Perry Stone) who are on the peripherals of those organisations tend not to get listed as a major player.

 

Hmmm, this is something which needs to be considered. If anyone can help me with a solution or can advise me of other heretical evangelical (and ecumenical) organisations which I have not already listed, please let me know.

 

I have already found another one which I will be adding soon i.e. those who were trained at the “church growth” Fullers Theological Seminary. Quite an eye opener!

12:23 pm, December 09, 2010

 

John Chingford said…

Hi Guys

 

I have updated the list to include those graduated or lectured at Fullers Theological Seminary, which specialises in church growth, ecumenism and new age and marketing ideas.

 

Very interesting to note Rick Warren graduated there. Also some other very notable persons, like Billy Graham who was on the Board of Trustees.

3: 5 2 pm, December 1 0,   2 0 1 0

 

Expected Imminently said…

Hello John

 

Just to agree, that ‘Fullers’ is certainly notorious! Having said that, the once brilliant Dallas, has also fallen. So sad.

Sue

7: 2 7 pm, December 1 3,   2 0 1 0

 

John Chingford said..

Correct me if I am wrong, but my early observations are that Campus Crusade For Christ has also fallen victim. These are the days we are living inI It seems that Bible Colleges or Universities are falling into the ecumenical, apostolic, global emerging, new age, experiential (non scripturally based) Christianity, everywhere.

 

It is because our pastors have been trained in these places that they have introduced this apostasy in our day.

 

It seems that no church is immune, from being infected by false pastors, who seem to be ALL on a mission/mandate – to achieve the global objective of “Joels Army and the Manifest Sons of God”.

 

Anyone reading this, who bases their lives upon the Word of God, and is thinking of becoming a pastor – please DO NOT enrol in a Bible University, as very few can be trusted anymore.

 

Surely you do not want to be infected also?

 

Rather, use a good concordance. Look at different versions of the Bible, and study the scriptures for yourself, by comparing scripture with scripture – depending on the Holy Spirit as your teacher. Do not use paraphrases, like the irreverant “Message”.

 

This is what I did, and praise God He preserved me, from going to these places. God instructed me in His Word directly, from the Bible.

1 0: 4 4 pm, December 1 3,   2 0 1 0

 

Anonymous said…

It is quite obvious that you have placed a great deal of effort and time into this, how sad. HERE’S A PROJECT FOR YOU – try supplying us a list of names of people you and others don’t feel are ‘false Christian leaders’. Or will you just be supplying your name?

1 0: 1 2 am, December 1 5,   2 0 1 0

 

John Chingford said…

Hi Anonymous,

 

Normally I wouldn’t publish this sort of comment because of its unpleasant nature. However, I decided yo publish this one because I felt I needed to clarify some things.Firstly, there are still some sound biblical ministries in existence, who do not exploit, distort, abuse deceive, mislead the multitudes. I am only listing organisations (and their people) who do these terrible things.Secondly, if you look at “my links” you will see a number of organisations and individuals I respect as ones who (amongst all odds) TELL THE TRUTH.

 

Thirdly, the Bible makes it plain that we should expose the false teachers and false prophets. The New Testament frequently names names. We should be very angry with those who are trying to lead the evangelical protestant church back into the clutches of the Babylonic Roman Catholic Church from which we had previously been freed.

 

The Organisations listed by me, are ALL ecumenical (or New age influenced) groups who are uniting with Rome. As Jude told us, we need to be earnestly contending for the TRUE faith once delivered to us and confront these people who are (effectively) working for the Vatican by leading us all to join the ecumenical train.

 

My list is based on an attempt to awaken us to realise how we are all being seduced by these false guys to become one with Rome and the one world global apostate religion. Let us RETURN to the Bible for our instructions and no longer be misled by MERE man.

 

I speak these things out of a heart full of compassion, love and concern for all my true believers in Christ, that they BE NOT DECEIVED by any man or Christian leader who denies the Scriptures as the ONLY standard for our faith.

1 0: 3 3 am, December 1 5,   2 0 1 0

 

John Chingford said…

When I mention the Bible, of course I mean Bibles which are translated directly from the original manuscripts of the Bible.These original manuscripts were recognised by all, as the inspirational writings (canon) of truth (i.e., does not include the apocrapha).

 

So, the “false” paraphrases which are simply the author’s personal and biassed interpretation cannot be considered as THE BIBLE as they are not direct translations from the Manuscripts.Please do not consider “The Message”, “Living Bible” “New Living Translation” or any other paraphrase or interpretations of the Bible (which were not from the original manuscripts) as your BIBLE because they actually distort the true message. Note: many use these paraphrases to support their ungodly agendas.

 

Those versions which can be used (reliably)as the WORD OF GOD are as follows: KJV, NIV, NKJV, NASB. I like to use these in combination to compare with each other so as to arrive at the correct meaning on the difficult passages.

 

There is actually no difference (in meaning) in the translations of these apart from using slightly different words to describe the same thing. By comparing the different versions it helps us to understand the true meaning better.

 

By the way, the NIV is very easy to read, so we really do not need paraphrases anyway!

1 0: 5 8 am, December 1 5,   2 0 1 0

 

Expected Imminently said…

Anonymous said “It is quite obvious that you have placed a great deal of effort and time into this, how sad. HERE’S A PROJECT FOR YOU – try supplying us a list of names of people you and others don’t feel are ‘false Christian leaders’. Or will you just be supplying your name?”

 

Hello John,This is a ‘backhanded compliment’, as your effort and time for The Lord has been noted and you have set a good example.

 

As the suggested ‘project’ is already in service; should simple logic have been used by ‘Anonymous’, it would have given this reticent person nothing to write about!

 

It’s patently obvious that this has been written by one who is badly informed of Scripture, as the writer is unable to grasp the cause of ‘contending for the faith’, thereby unable to recognise it’s being effected on this site.

 

This, in reality, is what is truly ‘sad’.

 

These two premises leads me to the conclusion that if their ‘fellowship’ is not already on the list, it probably should be! Perhaps, if they should remove their mask, you would be in a position to judge this fairly.

 

For the convenience of Anonymous.

 

Jude1: 3, 4 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR THE FAITH which was once for all delivered to the saints for certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

Rebuke.

 

2 Timothy 4: 2, Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, REBUKE, exhort, with all long suffering and teaching.

 

1 Timothy 5: 2 0 Those who are sinning REBUKE in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

 

Naming names.

 

Acts 5: 3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?

 

Galatians 2: 1 1 (Paul said) Now when PETER had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;

 

vs.12 for before CERTAIN MEN CAME FROM JAMES, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision.

 

vs. 1 3: And the rest of the JEWS also PLAYED THE HYPOCRITE with HIM (Peter), so that EVEN BARNABAS was carried away with their hypocrisy.

 

vs. 1 4. But when I saw that they were NOT STRAIGHT FORWARD ABOUT THE TRUTH OF THE GOSPEL, I (Paul) said to PETER BEFORE THEM ALL, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews?

 

Galatians 3: 1 O FOOLISH GALATIANS! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? Etc.

Sue

7: 2 9 pm, December 1 5,   2 0 1 0

 

John Chingford said…

Thanks EI for your very useful contribution.

 

I find it very sad how some “so called” believers can be so hateful in their comments, but even more heartbreaking is that these people are SO VERY ignorant of clear Bible teaching. We are living in days when these people DO NOT know their Bible! This is what saddens me the most. We all have availability to the living Word of God and do not respect it enough to study it properly.They live their lives based upon unscriptural ideas like the emerging manifest sons of God and impartations and false anointings via experiences apart from the Bible.

 

By the way EI, did Barry Smith believe in the rapture?

9: 4 1 pm, December 1 5  , 2 0 1 0

 

RomaLynn said…

Jude1: 3, 4 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to CONTEND EARNESTLY FOR THE FAITH which was once for all delivered to the saints for certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.I concur and as we all know many people do not want to wake up today.  Keep up the good fight.

1 0: 4 2 pm, December 1 5,   2 0 1 0

 

John Chingford said…

For those interested, I have found a you tube video of Barry Smith of 1 9 9 5 teaching on the second coming:

 

In this video he clearly states that he believed in Mid Tribulation Rapture, ie 3.5 years after the 7 year peace treaty was signed.

 

Does anybody have evidence whether he ever changed his view to “no rapture” between 1995 and his death? I say this because there are those who are very influenced by Barry and some who quote Barry when it comes to their end times views.

 

Anybody who wants to deny that there will be a rapture (at some point) are NOT being true to themselves in their interpretations of the scriptures. If anybody deliberately twists the scripture (for their own agenda) rather than being honest with God by accepting the WHOLE Word of God (in purity and humility) it tells me that they are probably not born-again. I mean, why would they do such things unless they have an evil unregenerate heart?

3: 5 3 pm, December 1 6,   2 0 1 0

 

John Chingford said…

I am not referring to those who have different views regarding the rapture because the scriptures are not 100% clear on when it will take place – although the overwhelming evidence is that it will be “pretrib” but I will never force that viewpoint over.

 

I am referring to those who deliberately ignore the scriptures that CLEARLY refer to “a” rapture or “translation” or “caught up – harpazo” or “gathered together” all terms which refer to a rescuing from the Earth at some point during the Tribulation.

 

To deny a rapture is to deny the Bible, which CLEARLY teaches a rapture. To deny the Bible is to deny Jesus. To deny Jesus is to be unsaved.

3: 5 9 pm, December 1 6,   2 0 1 0

 

John Chingford said…

Hi EI,

 

Thanks for your last comment which I will now publish on my rapture article.As this article is to do with false groups and leaders and not about the rapture debate, I will not say anymore on the Rapture debate here.

 

The reason I have already touched upon it here is because it was applicable to “false teachers” or “false groups”. I wanted to make that final point (above) that anyone who ignores that the Bible mentions a rapture (snatching away) and/or rejects anything in the Word of God, MUST be a false believer because the Holy Spirit would NEVER lead a believer to reject anything in the Bible.

 

I will now transfer all subsequent comments re the rapture, to my article on the rapture, although I (myself) will not get dragged into the debate on WHEN the rapture will take place. Please go to:

 

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/08/my-rapture-and-end-times-stance.html to continue the conversation.

 

 11: 0 1 pm, December 1 6,   2 0 1 0

 

Writer?

Hi John,

 

I have looked a bit at your site, but not by any means read all of it. I am shocked by your suggestion that anyone who fails to share your view on the rapture cannot be saved. Was anyone saved prior to J.N.Darby?  I am well aware of the history of the Restorationist movement in the UK.

 

What evidence do you supply for accusing newfrontiers of “working with Rome” and “New Age occultic practices”? I would agree that some restorationist groups have become ecumenist and “almost liberal”, but neither are charges that are fairly laid at the doors of newfrontiers.

3:08 pm, December 22, 2010

 

John Chingford said…

Hi Mark

In addition to this article and the given links:

 

Here is the history behind the New Frontiers Movement which shows why it is a dangerous group to be involved in.

 

Some time ago I read Terry Virgo’s blog. He did not and will not condemn false revivals like Todd Bentley’s so called Lakeland Revivals. Of course he wouldn’t because New Frontiers are on the frontline of these “experiential” revivals like Toronto.

 

Here is an excerpt (written before the Lakeland revival) to prove the point from:

 

http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/background/restuk3.html

 

“Branching out from their former isolation and tight doctrines, they have become ecumenistic, almost liberal, and are networking with every church group imaginable. The restoration fellowships, together with Elim Pentecostal fellowships, were in the forefront of the Toronto, Promise Keepers and Pensacola controversies, just as they had promoted the Kansas City Prophets earlier on.

 

Restoration teachings are responsible for infecting almost every branch of British church life, and their goal of full visible unity seems to draw nearer every year, as successive churches succumb to their influence.”

 

This link:

http://www.birthpangs.org/articles/background/restuk3.html

also gives the full history behind the New Frontiers movement.

 

As I (myself) got drawn into them during the 1980′s and 1990′s I DO know that these things are TRUE.

 

Hopefully, in about 3 or 4 weeks, I will complete my work and post articles which will answer your questions in entirety.

 

However, for now, let me start by asking some questions:

3:22 pm, December 22, 2010

 

John Chingford said…

Part 2 Cont.

 

Does New Frontiers support any of the following:

 

– Latter Rain

– Manifest Sons Of God

– Word of Faith

– Shepherding Movement

– Spring Harvest

– New Breed

– Joel’s Army

– New Apostolic Reformation (NAR)

– Third Wave Movement

– Vineyard

– Toronto Blessing

– Pensacola

– Lakeland Revivals

– Alpha

– TBN

– Seeker Friendly

– Purpose Driven

– Emerging Church

– HillSong

– Promise-Keepers

– Renovaré

– Elijah List (list of prophetic Ministries)

– Manhattan Declaration

– Westminster 2010 Declaration

– THE MESSAGE

– Lausanne Movement

– International Apostolic Council (IAC)

– International Coalition of Apostles (ICA)

 

All of these are ecumenical (i.e. links with Rome), and some of them have included new age practices. If anyone, or any group, are joined to any of these – they have become part of the ecumenical train, because this train, have all been infected by Rome. All such people need to come out of this now, and be reconciled back to God, to be able to go to Heaven.

 

Did you know, that the history behind the restoration movements, came out of the Latter rain movement – and was heavily influenced, by the shepherding movement and the Lauderdale 5.

 

In the 1960′s, we had the Vatican II Ecumenical resolution. From this time onwards, the Vatican have been seeking ways, to get protestants back into their fold – and have used any means to achieve this.

 

I will just add a couple of paragraphs here, about these false religions.

 

These terrible and bad groups, are all opposed to Israel being saved in latter times. Their teachings all assume, that the end has already happened to Israel, and any suggestion that Israel is re-emerging – is all false, as it is not Israel who are emerging but something false and pretence.

 

I have written in many places on this Blog, proving the real truth about Israel, now truly becoming a Nation again. My messages reveal, the real things happening.

 

1971 The first international charismatic conference held in Guildford in 1971 was described by some as the “Coming of Age of The Renewal” yet it was attended by 40 Lutherans and 30 Roman Catholics and one of the main speakers was Kevin Ranaghan. “Mr Pentecost” David Du Plessis was also there.

 

In 1972, Cardinal Suenens became intimately involved in the Renewal and introduced it to the Catholic Charismatic movement

 

In 1974 Martin and Clark teamed up with the ‘Fort Lauderdale Five’ (Bob Mumford, Charles Simpson, Derek Prince, Don Basham & Ern Baxter – former secretary to William Branham), who were the founders of the Shepherding Movement, which later became known as the Charismatic Movement (yes, friends, the Shepherding came first!).

 

They were joined by John Poole, another latter Rain adherent. Together these men established a group for ecumenical renewal.

 

A council was elected whose existence was kept secret as it was not acceptable at the time for Protestants to ‘labour in the Gospel’ with Catholics.

 

For the fledgling Shepherding Movement the money and power of the Vatican were attractive: for Martin and Clark it was a golden opportunity to begin implementing the ecumenical and Charismatic aspirations of Vatican II

3:30 pm, December 22, 2010

 

John Chingford said…

Part 3 Cont.

 

I heard from Terry Virgo’s own lips on video, how he supports Toronto and Lakeland and does not condemn the false practices and teachings of the CATHOLIC sent Todd Bentley.If you look at the history (which I will reveal in due course) of Latter Rain you will see it has occultic origins.

 

You say that New Frontiers is separate from Restoration churches. However, it is easier to get out of the restoration movement than it is to get the restoration movement out of New Frontiers.

 

Terry Virgo is still heavily influenced by his background and shows this by leading New Frontiers down the same path as the Latter Rain, Joels Army, Manifest Sons of God, New Breed, New Apostolic Reformation, Promise Keepers are following. No wonder NF follow the false revivals.

 

If I am wrong, please prove it to me. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong, but the evidence is overwhelming that New Frontiers leadership are influencing the churches to become ecumenical and encouraging everyone to follow the new paradigm of experiences in place of and above what the Bible teaches.

 

For example C Peter Wagner teaches that new revelation is just as important as revealed Biblical Truth and that “the end justifies the means”. Where does the Bible say that? In fact the Bible teaches the opposite. So deception and using occultic practices is okay if it produces decisions for Christ? NO WAY!

 

C Peter Wagner has got his fingers in countless pies and seems to be one of the greatest influences of the evangelical and charismatic churches becoming ecumenical in our day.

 

Quite honestly, the New Frontiers (born out of the restoration movement) has a very questionable foundation and DEFINITELY associates with “so called” charismatic catholics. They are still Catholics and choose to be attached to Rome (even if they are charismatic) and still part of the Vatican II resolution to bring about the unifying of evangelical churches to Rome. If anyone or any group associates with Rome (in any way) they are ecumenical.

3:40 pm, December 22, 2010

 

John Chingford said…

Mark

 

One other thing. Please re-read the introduction to my list which stated as follows:“The list does not mean that absolutely everybody listed is definitely a false leader, false teacher or false prophet, but there should be serious concern because of the faulty organisations they: belong to, associate with, work for, endorse and support.”

 

“we should be careful not to be too harsh on those who are only linked to one group, as they may have done this in ignorance. However, those who are attached to, or involved in, more than one group should cause us extra concern.”I made it clear that I was not categorically saying that everyone on my list was a false leader.

 

I cannot judge individuals and where they stand before God, but we can judge an organisation if it proves to be unbiblical, ecumenical and heretical.

 

The individuals are listed to simply show what groups they associate with. It is up to these individual leaders to decide (facing the evidence being given) if they want to continue their association, but is recommended that they seek the Lord seriously over the issues being presented and check the Bible (honestly) for themselves.

 

The list is also for those who want to know which leaders to avoid. Now that I have given this information, it is up to the inquirers to make up their own minds which teachers they should or should not listen to.

1:15 pm, December 24, 2010

 

John Chingford said…

Hi Mark,

 

Regarding the rapture:***(note: I have removed my previous comment on this because I realise that I was wrong in something I said and will now give you a replacement)***

Replacement:

 

Just to clarify. I DID NOT SAY that those who hold a different view of the rapture to mine are unsaved. I said that those who hold a “NO RAPTURE” view are probably not born-again.

 

Reason being, because the scriptures are VERY CLEAR that there IS a rapture (or Enoch type translation of the church. “He was not for God took him”. The same happened with Elijah).

 

To deny or reject any parts of the WORD OF GOD is tantamount to rejecting or denying Jesus.

 

If I am wrong, please prove it.

 

To clarify further:

 

When a person is truly born-again of the HOLY Spirit the Holy Spirit lives within that Christian. The Holy Spirit points us to Jesus and gives us the revelation that the Bible is the infallible, inspired Word of God.

 

The Holy Spirit teaches us from the Bible and confirms that the Bible is spiritual food for our souls and IS TRUTH.

 

Therefore, the Holy Spirit will not teach a believer that he can ignore any parts of scripture.

 

There are clear scriptures which teach that there will be a rapture (or translation, snatching away, gathered together, caught up into the clouds etc – all mean the same thing). “One man will be taken, the other left behind”.

 

If anyone chooses to ignore all the references to these and state that there will be NO rapture is to deny the Very Word of God which the Holy Spirit would never do – if He is within a person.

 

The scriptures say that “he who does not have the Holy Spirit does not belong to God”. So the one who deliberately rejects clear scripture cannot be led by the Holy Spirit. “Those who are led by the Holy Spirit are sons of God”.

 

I admit that a born-again believer can still sin. The difference is that a saved believer will never be happy sinning and will always come under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

 

A believer DOES NOT habitually sin in word, deed or thoughts because he wants to please the Lord and because he has become a new creation in Christ and cannot live like that anymore. If he sins he cannot rest until he confesses it to his Lord.

 

So, what about those who deliberately and habitually twist the scriptures and deliberately teach and practice error, without repentance?

 

It is true that we may misinterpret scripture, especially difficult subjects like whether the rapture is pre, mid or post etc. I am not addressing that.

 

But to deliberately ignore all references to words which mean rapture and state “there is no rapture” deliberately and habitually closing your heart and mind to this, would indicate a closed heart to God – maybe even not being born-again or “saved”.

2:00 pm, December 24, 2010

 

John Chingford said…

Part 2 Cont.

 

I may have given the impression that I believed that everybody who believes in a “no rapture” is unsaved. If so, I apologise. I realise there are some believers who have not been saved long and probably don’t even know of the word rapture. Those who do not know their bibles, may be ignorant about these clear teachings. However, once the (truly born-again) believers have been enlightened of these clear teachings, the Holy Spirit will speak to their hearts about these verses.

 

The truly saved believer will accept ALL scripture and will not reject anything and therefore, will accept clear teaching.

 

The unsaved person, once confronted by these truths (if they don’t like what they are reading) will reject it. This is surely one evidence whether someone has truly been born-again or not?

 

As stated in the book of Acts Be a Berean and “check the scriptures daily to see if what I am saying is true”. If I am wrong, please show me from scripture taken in context.

 

By the way even the word RAPTURE IS mentioned in the bible.

 

The word “rapture” comes from Paul’s “caught up” remark in 1 Thes 4:17. The english words “caught up” are translated from the Greek word harpazo (from the original manuscripts)which means “to carry off,” “snatch up,” or “grasp hastily.”

 

The translation from harpazo to “rapture” involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word “rapture.”, ie meaning being caught up or snatched away (like Enoch and Elijah).

 

By the way, Harpazo is a derivative of ‘haireo’ meaning to ‘lift up.

 

Also consider where those alive at the Rapture of the true invisible Church meet The Lord together with the resurrected ‘dead in Christ’; it is in the CLOUDS. The Greek translation of ‘clouds’ is ‘nephelē which is used of the cloud which led the Israelites in the wilderness used in The Septuagint, the Greek translation of the O.T.

 

This is no fluffy, nebulous drift of water vapour; this is part of the ‘shekinah’ the visible ‘glory of God’.

 

The meeting takes place in the AIR, the atmospheric region surrounding planet earth. It is a sudden event. This is described as imminency, it is an ‘overhanging’ event that could happen at any moment. Paul called it a ‘mystery’ meaning it is not revealed in the O.T., only in the N.T. 1Cor.15:51-54. Jesus comes to rescue His true Church from ‘the wrath to come’. 1Thess.1:10.

2:01 pm, December 24, 2010

 

John Chingford said…

The reason I take a strong line on this is because it is the Kingdom Now and Dominionists who preach a “no rapture” view because of their ungodly hidden agendas for World Conquest. They fit into the glove of the NWO and are a return to the ungodly, Babylonic blasphemous days of Vatican rule. They want to return us to the “dark ages” of Catholic dominion which was VERY unChristlike and was clearly led by those who were NOT born-again.Those who are pushing us to follow back into that dark age are showing similar fruit and behaviours of those dark ages. This is why I ask the question “is it possible that those who deliberately reject the scriptures and twist them to squeeze a false doctrine out are actually not saved?

2:25 pm, December 24, 2010 

Barb said…How on earth did you come up with these ‘false’ leaders and organisations?Spring harvest and hillsong have brought so many people to God who, as a result will be going to a heaven..a place where I’m pretty sure you wont be welcome.

10:25 pm, January 04, 2011

 

John Chingford said…

Hi Barb,  I have cut out some of the uhelpful things you wrote and just showing the part which I feel nedds to be answered. I would value my other readers replying also.I have already explained how I produced the list and why. The reason Spring Harvest and Hillsong are included will become apparent in due course, once I have time to complete my project which will include why these organisations are becoming apostate or ecumenical.

 

Basically, any group that holds hands with the Catholic Church are returning back to the days of spiritual darkness of the dark ages.

 

I have already explained on one of my articles why the Catholic church is a false counterfeit religion – straight out of old Babylonic religion, so anybody who unites with them is becoming part of the apostate movement away from the true God. True pure Christianity of the reformation was fought for “protested” for against the Catholic Church in the 16th Century. Why are we returning back to it?

 

Spring Harvest have apostates who preach there. They are going in the direction of the New Age and Catholic inspired Emerging Church with Steve Chalke and McLaren et al. The teaching is highly a distortion of the Word of God and teaches that experience is more important than the Word of God. But actually it is the Bible which is a plumbline to check whether experiences are of God or not.

 

Hillsong is all about “entertaining self” and is highly ecumenical. I will be saying more on this in due course

10:43 pm, January 04, 2011

 

John Chingford said…

Regarding taking people to heaven.How do you know that SH and Hillsong are bring people to God? It is rather subjective! What I actually see is a watered down “experience” or self centred gospel being preached which produces fruit after its kind. The “conversions” tend to produce superficial Christians who may have never known what REAL repentance is and their born-again experience may simply be just an experience or feeling which does not last!

 

Yes, in spite of the false gospel God may save some because He is SOVEREIGN and He can save some regardless, but that should not be an excuse for us to excuse their counterfeit message.

 

I know that in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s SH was much more scriptural but it is no longer so.

10:51 pm, January 04, 2011

 

Katy said…

I’m sorry. I am probably very stupid but I find this stuff very difficult.Whenever I read the Bible, the translations you recomend,I do see that all of this stuff about Rapture is important and I am not saying that this isn’t a debate worth having and that we don’t need to hold leaders to account for the truth that they preach BUT, no matter how many times I read the gospels (with your understanding of it in mind) I am overwhelmed by a sense that the big stuff is being missed.

 

I think Jesus cared deeply about the stuff you are talking about, but most of the time his biggest concern is love. I read Matthew 25 and can’t stop myself believing that this is actually the heart of Jesus’ message, that more then our understanding of our relationship with God, it is the IMPACT of that realtionship that matters.

 

Afterall Jesus said ‘By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another’

 

not you will know who my disciples are because, having fully recieved the gift of the Holy Spirit, gven sufficient time they are fully aware of the means and method of their salvation, have clear understanding of the last days and are completely certain of the wholistic divine authority of the scriptures that are to come.

 

I’m sorry I probably sound ridiculous but I don’t see much of the love centred Jesus who who fought for the poor and lowly and disadvantaged whilst showing love to the sinners and the outcasts in the stuff you post.

 

I find this all very confusing, you tell me that the Bible is the word of God that I must take seriously, but no matter how I read it, I can’t square your vision of Jesus with what the Bible says about his life and I just feel lost.

 

I have read much of and researched the work of some of the people on your list and when I look at the way that they live their lives, their care for those who hungry, naked, thirsty, imprisoned, (the things Jesus specifically asks us to look out for) I see the IMPACT of something and if that seemingly Jesus like love is not the impact of the God I follow I don’t understand the gospels at all.

 

Can you explain this to me?

11:07 am, January 05, 2011

 

John Chingford said…

Hi Katy

 

Welcome to this blog. Thanks for your questions. Wow, a lot of questions and implications in your comments. I will try to tackle them generally and point you to articles which give answers to your questions. Please first read these following articles::

 

Why Jesus Is The ONLY Way To Heaven and How To Be Saved

 

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/08/why-jesus-is-only-way-to-heaven-and-how.html

 

How To Be Truly Saved and Be Certain Of Going To Heaven

 

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/03/how-to-be-truly-saved-and-be-certain-of.html

 

What Is Repentance?

 

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/02/what-is-repentance.html

 

Qualities Of True Biblical Leadership Compared To the False Teachers

 

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/10/qualities-of-true-biblical-leadership.html

 

We Are No Longer Under Law But Under Grace! What Does That Really Mean?

 

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/01/no-longer-under-law-but-under-grace.html

 

How To Handle False Teaching And Strange, Different Teachings

 

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/09/how-to-handle-false-teaching-and.html

 

My Rapture and End Times Stance

 

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/08/my-rapture-and-end-times-stance.html

 

(Read just the introduction to this article as it explains my stance that other teachings like loving one another are more important than our end times stance)

 

The Importance Of Combining Discernment With Love

 

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/02/importance-of-combining-discernment.html

 

Are Our Experiences More Important In Our Christian Faith Than knowing Him through His Word?

 

http://watchmanforjesus.blogspot.com/2010/02/are-our-experiences-more-important-in.html

11:25 am, January 05, 2011

 

John Chingford said…

Cont

 

Katy much of what you say is absolutely correct. My articles listed above should prove that I am very concious NOT to miss the BIG stuff. From these articles you will see I try to keep a good balance and to NOT get sidetracked away from the Truth.Jesus did not say that loving one another saves you. He simply stated that TRUE believers would be noticed because of their love for one another. This love is unique.This love, is not of human endeavour because the flesh (sinful nature) can never love in the way Jesus is referring to. This love is from the Holy Spirit as a segment of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

We are not disciples because of the love we generate (in our own strength) but we love because WE ARE disciples (because we have already been changed). We first need to be born-again of the Holy Spirit before we can start loving in this supernatural way.

 

As Jesus stated, even the unsaved do works of love in helping the less fortunate. Our love should FAR exceed the love of the unsaved caring people. It HAS to be supernatural (of the Holy Spirit) because we cannot generate that ourselves.

 

Jesus said that some will come to Him saying “we did this in your name and that in your name”. Jesus told them He never knew them. They may have produced the “acts” of being a disciple but they were never born-again. It was all of SELF effort.

 

Regarding Matthew 2 5 and the goats and the sheep. This is referring to those who are left behind AFTER the rapture. The dispensation and rules of salvation change somewhat after the rapture. The sheep are those who treated the Jewish people kindly during the Tribulation. Jesus was primarily talking about Israel and maybe those who are saved after the rapture(at this point) and NOT the church (because the Church has been raptured).

 

Regarding love. Sometimes love can be tough! “faithful are the wounds of a friend”. Jesus had great compassion on the scribes and pharisees. He said “how often I would have gathered you together under my wings but you would not”. Jesus then (out of a heart full of compassion and love)said “woe to you scribes and pharisees” in Matthew 2 3.

 

Jesus often spoke seemingly harshly to the hypocrites and superficial followers. If Christians spoke in similar ways, we are criticised as being “unloving”. Love is not a warm, fuzzy feeling, saying the right things diplomatically. Love can be tough at times.

 

Truth can be painful! 1 Corinthians 13 is an excellent passage on DIVINE (agape) love and how it works through us, but that chapter is not the only passage on love. John writes about love in his gospel and in his letters. John shows what tough love is like.

1 1: 5 7 am,  January 0 5,   2 0 1 1

 

Katy said…

Hi thanks for getting back to me. I hope I’m not asking too many question! some of that makes sense eg the sheep and the goas bit but I think tha you misunderstand me.

 

I am not saying that I think people are saved by their love acytions, I am saying if this is the way that people are able to identify Christians because they have been saved.

 

I am saying just that, the way some of these people, who are claiming Jesus as their Lord and sviour, have such enourmous and unflinching capasity to love, must mean that we need to think carefully before claiming they are apostates?

 

That is not to say that their actions save them but that their actions suggest salvation surely, by Jesus’ own measure?

 

I hope too I have not give the wrong impression on my views on love. I do not think it is a flufy wooley thing at all. I tink it is very important that we can speak out (sometimes painfully) when someone goes astrey. I see that this is completely Biblical and needed, however I question somwhat the way that you have done it.

 

Yes question the authority of organisations, but to name individuals in the extreme terms that you have out of the context of relationship (as I’m guessing you have spoken with very few of these people), which is where ALL of th Biblical teaching on saying difficult truth seems to point, you sight Peter and Paul- who had context and dialogue.

 

I find this especially difficult as you yourself admit many of these people may not hold the views you object to so vehemently. Jesus seems to always have these awkward conversations in front of people in relationship context. I’m just not certain if this is the way to make a point, it does not sit comfortably with the gospels to me.

 

Also I find your list on closer inspection confusing. For example you have mentioned Derrida, a philosopher who never even CLAIMED to be a Christian. You have also listed a number of other philosophers and theologians who died long long long before things like emering church, which they are linked to (eg Kierkeguaard) so I find this a little misleading. We cannot be sure of what their position was with regards to this, even if their theological position points in thatdrection thecannot b said to be affiliated with it in the true sense of the word.

 

Thanks, Katy

6: 2 7 pm,  January 0 5,   2 0 1 1

 

Expected Imminently said…

 

Barb said: “Spring harvest and hillsong have brought so many people to God who, as a result will be going to a heaven..a place where I’m pretty sure you wont be welcome”.“When Jesus spoke to the multitudes, it can be said His teaching literally ‘brought so many people to God”. They literally stood face to face with God.

 

The premise above, put forward by Barb, concludes that as a result these people will be going to heaven. I fear that proposition is based upon wishful thinking rather than Biblical fact.John 6:26 Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.

 

These people were entertained by the miracles which were designed to prove to Israel that Jesus was fulfilling O.T. prophecy and was their long promised Messiah. Receiving this spiritual truth would give them ‘Bread from Heaven’; but it totally escaped them, as they looked for a full belly of the temporary bread that the earth provides.

 

Did meeting God face to face mean these people would be going to heaven?

 

Jesus said to the people in John 6:36 “But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not”.

 

Vs41 “The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven”.

 

The people did not like the answer Jesus gave to them.

 

Jesus explained to the people who stood before Him the Truth about who He is to Vs.58 “This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever”.

 

The people who had been brought to God had enjoyed the entertainment and their stomachs were now satiated. But they were offended when Jesus reiterated His teaching Vs. “And he said, ‘Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, EXCEPT it were given unto him of my Father’”.

 

The result of all those people being brought before God is recorded in 6:66 “From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. Vs.67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Vs.68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. Vs.69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God”.

 

The Biblical conclusion does not remotely suggest that if people are brought to God by entertainment that they will ‘as a result be going to heaven’. Peter recognised and accepted who Jesus was and actively BELIEVED in Christ.

 

John 1:12 “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even TO THEM THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME”:

 

That is the ONLY way people can get to heaven! And EVERYONE is VERY welcome.

Sue

8: 3 2 pm,  January 0 5,   2 0 1 1 

 

John Chingford said…

Thanks EI for your contribution and thanks Katy for your further response.I agree with EI and also accept much of what you say Katy.

 

About 5 years ago I was making the same statements as you. I found it extremely difficult to accept that these people which I had respected for a long time were false. I argued in the same way as you.

 

However, I cannot ignore truth and cannot close my ears to something which I don’t like without investigating those claims.

 

That started me on a journey of questioning all the “iffy” interpretations of scriptures, handed down to me, which I had previously trusted.

 

This meant a REAL and thorough study of the Bible and internet searching over those accused ministries.

 

In most cases I found the claims of false ministries to be true. This blog is a result of my findings.

 

Regarding those who “seem” to live loving wondertful Godly lives, remember only God knows what is truly going on in their hearts.

 

Just because a person practices love (example Mother Theresa) does not make them a true teacher. By their fruits (standing upon the Word of God)will you know the true and false teachers.

 

Jesus said that out of the abundance of your heart you speak. So what they speak (false doctrine)fruit, shows far more what is in their hearts than “acts” of kindness.

1 0: 2 3 pm,  January 0 5,   2 0 1 1 

 

John Chingford said…

KatyYou are probably right about some names on the list. yes it may be confusing (in some cases). Many of these names I have never heard of. I got these lists from the different reputable apologetics ministries. They simply listed the names of leaders working within each organisation. I collated all those lists into just one chart.

 

As I stated, it is up to my readers to check these people out themselves, but I just wanted to highlight that these people had identified themselves within these false, apostate, ecumenical (new age influences) groups.

1 0: 2 9 pm,  January 0 5,   2 0 1 1

 

Barb said…

I agree that everyone is welcome and I shouldn’t have said that in my last comment. I also know how people get to heaven and still stand by what I say in that spring harvest and hillsong have brought people to God.I totally disagree with what your saying though. I have to be honest.. I dont understand what most of the words your using mean. I cant see how you think you are doing right by naming these people and organisations false. I noticed you’ve also included the alpha course…which has also brought people to God and many people have been saved by doing it.

 

Times are changing and the Christian faith is dying out, different methods need to be used to bring people to God and to make christianity ‘recent’ and something people can relate to. If this is through song and events such as spring harvest then so be it!

 

I’m young myself (20) and am very lucky that I have been brought up in a christian family and have a relationship with God. Out of all my friends I have one christian friend, I believe something huge has to be done!

 

If you knew every single person on your list and had listened to everything they had to say then fair enough…however I doubt very much that this is the case so I disagree strongly with what you are doing.

1 2: 2 4 am,  January 0 7,   2 0 1 1 

 

John Chingford said…

Hi BarbPlease check through all the above comments by all the contributors. Especially take note of Expected Imminently’s comments which are spot on.

 

It must be so difficult with those coming to faith in Jesus, these days because most of these came to faith through a watered down version of the gospel.

 

The expression used a lot is “we must be relevant”. This is usually an excuse to preach a marketing type of message, ie tell the people a message they are more likely to respond to, ie give them what they want and NOT what they need.

 

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever. His message IS ALWAYS relevant and should NEVER change because HE never changes. The “old” message is relevant, ie we are all sinners who are lost in trespassies and sins and need Jesus to save us. We need to REPENT and be born-again.

 

Jesus said that unless a man denies himself, takes up his cross and follows Him he cannot be a disciple. Paul said “it is no longer I that live but Christ who lives in me.

 

The False gospel being preached by virtually all the organisations I listed, omits repentance and talks very little about sin. People like Rick Warren teach that God has a plan for EVERY life. All people need to do is ask him to fulfil that plan. No talk about sin, no tyalk about repentance.

 

You have Steve Chalk, who states that Jesus was not punished for our sins by the Father because that would be global child abuse. Many others are teaching similar heresies.

 

It may be relevant but it is heretical.

2: 5 4 pm,  January 0 7,   2 0 1 1 

 

John Chingford said…