438 Reply to Rabbi. Why is there no Forgiveness, without Blood Sacrifice

Page 438

Reply to Rabbi. He did not believe, that there was no Forgiveness, without Blood Sacrifice. That is, he wrongly believed, that he didn’t need BLOOD SACRIFICE.

Monday, 1 8 October 2 0 1 0

Reply to a Rabbi. There can be No Forgiveness, Without Blood Sacrifice

I read an article, which was written, on a Rabbis website. This article was attempting to prove, that Jewish/Israeli people, do not need blood ALONE – for God to Forgive.

This Rabbi, gave examples from the Bible, showing that God Forgave – without the sacrifice of animals. His comments, were related to Leviticus chapter 1 7.

If we look at Leviticus chapter 1 7, we will see, it is not necessarily discussing deliberate SIN, but a simple disease that may or may not be harmful. Is there a need, for forgiveness of sin, here? So was sacrifice of animals needed, in this situation, for forgiveness of sin?

Well actually, disease would not exist, if sin did not exist. It is because all men/women have all sinned, that no-one can be perfect. That means, that absolutely EVERYBODY has sinned, and fallen short of God’s Glory – and standard for perfection.

If no-one is able ever, to live a perfect life, and no-one is good enough for Heaven – then who will go to Heaven?

The fact is, that all have massively failed. NOW, ONLY JESUS has made a way, for us all to be forgiven – and able to go to Heaven. The purpose of the PAST LAWS etc, was to show EVERYBODY, how much they failed God – and were desperate for His mercy and forgiveness.

JESUS enabled EVERY MAN, to be forgiven, and cleansed – through Him.

By the way, if so much ugly sin, kept controlling peoples lives – so much, then whatsoever gave them any satisfaction, that they could go to Heaven? Fact is, that unless things changed, NO-ONE would be able to go to Heaven!

God loved everyman so much, that any salvation He wanted to give, had to come directly from HIM only. As nothing else could save any of us.

Has any Israeli/Jewish person, ever managed to conquer sin for their whole life, live a totally perfect life – and live well enough, to go to Heaven? How can anyone be sure, that all their sins, throughout their whole life – are forgiven?

This is why Jesus had to die for them. It was out of massive love for them. This was because, Jesus knew, that they could never be good enough – for Heaven.

The reason of the Law, was to reveal, how terrible we are – and that only God’s forgiveness, by HIS way, would be good enough, for our salvation from SIN.

I now know, that Leviticus 1 7, was not saying that we did not need Blood forgiveness. That chapter, was talking about something completely different. It was showing everyone, that perfection was IMPOSSIBLE. They could not obtain perfection, so needed a better way, for forgiveness.

Incidentally, please click on this shortcut link, to see the Real Truth – of why Blood sacrifice, is still necessary.

Why God Required, Animal Blood Sacrifice, In The Bible?

The above, contains a full answer, to why God DID ALWAYS require blood, for forgiveness. I also decided, to write to the rabbi, refuting his arguments.

The Rabbi, surprisingly replied to my email, with further comments – and questions. I then sent other emails, replying to his questions.

I will show the full contents, of his questions and answers, below – because it illustrates the Truth. It proves, how the Jewish people (like all people), can find eternal forgiveness of sins. This forgiveness, comes in no other sacrifice, but by the one – only done by Jesus (Yeshua).

I now start, again from the beginning, with this conversation I had. This is My Email conversation.

Dear Rabbi F, I have answered your questions, in the following way.

1. Question, 2. Answer, 3. next question, 4. Next answer, 5. Question, 6. Answer, 7 to 2 0 continued in same way.

Your Questions are in Blue, followed by my Answers in Green.

1. Your first Question: Regarding Leviticus 1 7: 1 1, did you notice the verse before it? Did you read the verse after it? The whole paragraph, regards not eating blood, that is meant for the altar. Christians rip the verse out of its context, and come up with a meaning, and interpretation that is UnBiblical.

2. My Answer:

I read the whole chapter, and compared it to passages throughout the Tenach, because I always ensure I read in context – including previous and later verses.

Lev 1 7: 1 0. And whatsoever man there be, of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you – that eats any manner of blood, I will even set my face against that soul, that eats blood. I will cut him off, from among his people.

Lev 1 7: 1 1. For the life of the flesh, is in the blood, and I have given it to you – upon the altar, to make an atonement for your souls. For it is the blood, that makes an atonement, for the soul.

Lev 1 7: 1 2. Therefore, I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood – neither shall any stranger, that stay among you, eat blood.

The verse is saying, that IF one chooses blood sacrifice, for the forgiveness of sins – then the blood goes on the altar, not in one’s mouth. This is because, there were other ways, to obtain forgiveness. But the blood, placed on the alter, was still very much needed.

Out of those 3 verses, where does it use the word “IF”? Actually the whole passage, is talking about, why blood should be treated seriously. The blood represents something very holy, and significant, and because the life is in the blood. For these reasons, the blood should not be handled carelessly. Example, eating it.

That is all it is saying, and it does not limit forgiveness, to only blood sacrifices – as my web site shows.

Firstly, the ancient sages disagree. They translated Leviticus 1 7, to state in the Septuagint, that without the shedding of blood (using the alter) – there is no forgiveness of sin.

Secondly, the Torah states repeatedly, that the sacrifices – were to make atonement, as does the rabbinic tractate YOMA.

Thirdly, there was no temple, or interest in it – in the post captivity period. The prophets Haggai and Ezra, both gave The Word of HaShem, to rebuild it. And re-start the sin sacrifices.

3. Your Second Question:

And when was the blood of your human jesus, poured on the altar?

4. My Answer:

It was poured out, at the crucifixion. The blood of Jesus, was first sprinkled over the (cross) altar, through the nails – then culminated in the spear, that was stabbed in His side, resulting in the blood pouring out, upon the base of the altar.

The altar was outside the temple, to show that forgiveness was now available, to everybody – not just a select few. That is why the curtain of the Temple, was torn from top to bottom, to reveal the way into Gd’s presence – is now available to all.

5. Your Third Question:

You claim that Gd never changes. Okay, then when did Gd change His mind, from “Everyone shall be put to death FOR HIS OWN SIN” – of Deuteronomy 2 4: 1 6, to your christian belief, that Jesus the man died for the sins of all.

6. My Answer:

I do not believe, that Gd changes His mind. I do believe, that His plan of redemption, is eternal. He knew from the beginning, to the end (as an everlasting Gd), what His plan was.

– He knew that Adam would sin.

– He knew that ALL men would sin.

But Gd loves us all, and wants us to have the same relationship, that Adam had at the beginning (before the disobedience). I see these things:

* His eternal plan, revealed throughout the scriptures

* How He made a covenant with Abraham, NOT based on the Law, but by faith.

* How Gd’s people, were forever failing, even within this covenant.

* How Gd introduced the Torah, for His people, to set them apart – and train them, to be a light to the gentiles

* How Gd knew, that they needed guidelines to live, and how to deal with sin

* How the Torah, provided a way for forgiveness

* But I also see, how the ultimate plan of Gd, was for an ultimate sacrifice – which would forgive sins, once and for all time.

* That there would be a new covenant, with Israel, based on a new Law – written on peoples hearts. Jeremiah 3 1: 3 1 – 3 4

Gd did not change His mind. It was His plan, at the very beginning, of forgiveness though blood. His plan, that everyone was responsible for his own sin, would last – until the time came, for the ultimate sacrifice, whereby all could be forgiven eternally.

7. Your Fourth Question:

When did Gd change His mind, from Hosea 1 1: 9, ‘For I am Gd and not a man,’ to your Christian belief, that Jesus the man was also Gd?

8. My Answer:

Let’s look at this, in context:

Hosea 1 1: 7(a) says “ My people, are determined to turn from me “. e.g. of how man behaves and thinks

1 1: 8 – 9 (a) “ How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I treat you like Admah? How can I make you like Zeboiim?My heart is changed within me. All my compassion is aroused. I will not carry out my fierce anger ” e.g. how Gd behaves and thinks.

In context, Gd is saying, that He is not like man – in the way He thinks and behaves. It is not saying (in this verse), that Gd could never live – within a sinless, perfect and holy man.

It is talking about gd’s (God’s) nature, compared to man’s nature. We do not believe, that Jesus (the man part of Jesus), became fully God – while He lived on Earth. We believe, that Jesus returned back to Himself as GOD, after – He rose from the grave.

However, God (the Son) has eternally existed, but supernaturally – entered the womb of Mary. This, was to enter a human “tabernacle”.

We believe, that the Tabernacle (followed by the Temple), were a foreshadow – of the Tabernacle (or body) of Jesus, which was to come.

God told David, that Heaven is His throne, and the Earth His footstool. He said, what building is sufficient, or suitable – for My omnipresence?

However, He chose to reveal Himself, within this tabernacle. That is, within the building, called Holiest of Holies.

This was a picture of God, being pleased to restrict Himself, to one place – in the same way, as He did in the body of Jesus. This was the fulfilment, of the tabernacle (or Temple).

Regarding the Son, the Tenach is full of references. Here are a few:

Psalm 2: 7 “I will proclaim the decree of the LORD”. He said to me, “You are my Son, today I have become your Father”

Psalm 2: 1 2 “Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you be destroyed in your way – for his wrath can flare up in a moment. Blessed are all who take refuge in him”

Psalm 1 1 0: 1 “the Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand”.

Note: Elohim has a plurality meaning. And God said “let us“ in Genesis 1.

9. Your Fifth Question:

You claim, that you are interested in my thoughts, on the matter. You will pardon my disbelief. Most of what I get, are those, who just wish to sharpen their debating skills. I am not here to debate, just to explain, what Jews believe.

1 0. My Answer:

I appreciate the time you have given to this. I DO find it interesting, to know what Jews believe, and how you interpret scripture. I am not one for debating, and winning arguments, per se.

I simply desire to be used by God, for His sake, and not mine – and be used to hand out the great truth, to others. I know that I have something good to share, with others, to be a blessing to them.

I write these things, because of our mutual love of the scriptures, and desire to learn the real truth. I never want to win arguments, but always, to reveal and open up the truth – that will bless others.

1 1. Your Sixth Question:

No, the blood was never poured, on the animal sacrifices. That was an idea, invented by Christian polemicists. Besides, the text never says, it is the animal sacrifice below – that did the atoning. It was the flour itself, even if there was animal sacrifices below it. But there is nothing to show, that the blood was poured over animal sacrifices, except in the mind of Christians – who need to think this, in order to maintain their unBiblical beliefs.

1 2. My Answer:

I never stated, that the blood was poured upon the sacrifices. I said (as per given in the scripture) that the flour was placed upon the sacrifices, which would surely be still bloody? Therefore, the flour would get mixed in, with the blood on the animals – to make the sacrifice acceptable.

So even here, forgiveness comes through blood. Why else does it say, to place the flour onto the other sacrifices, rather than it be a separate sacrifice of itself? Regarding the pouring out of blood, I read throughout Leviticus, the same thing said over and over again:

“take some of the blood, with his finger, and put it on the horns of the altar – of burnt offering. Pour out the rest of the blood, at the base of the altar”.

1 3. Your Seventh Question:

Again I ask, when was the human blood of Jesus, poured over an altar?

1 4. My Answer:

As explained, the body of Jesus, was actually the complete fulfilment – of everything within the Temple. It WAS the whole temple, in physical form. So His blood, was poured upon the base of the altar, at the foot of the cross – when the spear was thrust into His side. As the whole Earth, is Gd’s footstool, the temple of Gd (i.e. body of Jesus) – was at the place of crucifixion.

It was just outside Jerusalem, to ALSO fulfil the requirement, of the sacrificial goat – being burned outside the camp. Jesus WILLINGLY, lay His life down for us, to bear the full brunt – of punishment for our sins.

Jesus fulfils and completely satisfies, all requirements, of a perfect sacrifice. This done as a lamb of God, taking away our sins forever. He fully satisfied, the requirements, of a Holy – Just and Righteous Gd, for atonement for sin.

To explain further about this, please read my article, within this shortcut link:

Significance Of The Scapegoat On Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). Revised

1 5. Your Eighth Question:

The fact, that Solomon felt he could pray that prayer, means – that he knew it was acceptable, and was therefore not in his mind, that Gd had to have a blood sacrifice (for the forgiveness of sin). It is not a Biblical idea, that Gd demands a blood sacrifice, for the forgiveness of sins.

1 6. My Answer:

In answer to this, I will repeat something I said earlier:

Firstly, the ancient sages disagree. They translated Leviticus 1 7, to state in the Septuagint, that without the shedding of blood – there is no forgiveness of sin.

Secondly, the Torah states repeatedly, that the sacrifices were to make atonement, as does the rabbinic tractate YOMA.

Thirdly, there was no temple, or interest in it (in the post captivity period). Therefore, the prophets Haggai and Ezra, both gave The Word of HaShem – to rebuild it, and reinaugerate the sin sacrifices.

If Blood was not required, why is it, that at every possible opportunity – the sacrificial service was reinstated, before the last 2 0 2 0 years?

Whenever Israel repented, and returned to the Lord, they always reinstated the sacrifices. It was part and parcel, of repentance, and the need for Cleansing and Forgiveness.

As I understand it, they are still sacrificing chickens, in Israel today – for the Blood. They also want to reinstate Temple worship, and sacrifice again. From my sources, I hear that everything is ready, for rebuilding the Temple. They are waiting, to find a red heifer, and for a Political “go ahead”.

So if all Jewish people, believe Blood is not required, why are these things – being put in place today?

1 7. Your Ninth Question:

Furthermore, Gd explicitly states, that human sacrifices – are an abomination to Him, and something He hates. So who died on the cross? Was it Jesus-the-god, or Jesus-the-human? If it was Jesus-the-god, like Dionysus, then sorry – Gd cannot die. If it was Jesus-the-human, then all you have, is a human sacrifice.

1 8. My Answer:

I Have already answered some of this, but will say a bit more:

The body of Jesus, died on the cross, but the divinity within Jesus – did not die. Jesus said “it is finished”. Bodily he died. He then said, “into your hands I commit my Spirit”.

So, a separation then happened, of the Glorious divine perfect alive Jesus – being joined in Spirit, by the Temporary dead Jesus. He was dead, but now risen/alive again, after 3 days – to be totally re-united as ONE JESUS.

It is a complete mystery, what happened on the cross. But what is clear, when we compare all the scriptures together, is that “the Word became flesh”. The Son Of God, took on human form. When He died, the divinity left the body, and the body died.

So that means that “God” did not die. It was the body, the sin stained body, that died. OUR sins were laid upon Him, the perfect one. He died, and was temporarily separated on the cross, as: man and God.

But to show, that Jesus had dealt with sin and death, once for all time – He needed to re-enter that DEAD body, on the 3rd day. He was raised from the dead, transformed from a sin stained body (sacrifice had been fully completed), into a Glorious Body.

It was perfect, except for the death marks on his body, resultant from the crucifixion. As a Testimony to us all, He amazingly keeps that older body, for all eternity. It is now, a Glorified body.

1 9. Your Tenth Question:

And what Jews, practised animal sacrifice, until 7 0? Only those Jews in Israel. The vast majority of Jews, never went back, under Cyrus of Persia – as I wrote on the web site. They could not have cared about the Temple, because they knew, that they didn’t need a Blood sacrifice – for the forgiveness of sins, as we are taught in Hosea 1 4: 2.

2 0. My Answer:

Hosea 1 4: 2, does not specifically say, that they did not need Blood – to atone for their sins. It could simply be taken as read, that Blood was required, so did not need to be mentioned. What I am saying, is that you cannot assume, from that specific verse – that Blood was not required.

Besides, many prophets foretold, of the perfect sacrifice of Jesus. This sacrifice, was an eternal sacrifice, so it was inevitable – that Gd would shortly destroy the Temple. The fulfilment of the Temple, had already come. It had come, through Jesus dying for our sins, on the cross.

There would be no further need, for sacrifice. These prophets talked about forgiveness, without Blood, because they “saw” the death – and resurrection, of the Messiah, in the future.

I have now added something new, which is more appropriate, to the original Leviticus 1 7 question. Please now read these chapters, again.

If we look at Leviticus chapter 1 7, we will see, it is not necessarily discussing deliberate SIN, but a simple disease that may or may not be harmful. Is there a need, for forgiveness of sin, here? So was sacrifice of animals needed, in this situation, for forgiveness of sin?

Well actually, disease would not exist, if sin did not exist. It is because all men/women have all sinned, that no-one can be perfect. That means, that absolutely EVERYBODY has sinned, and fallen short of God’s Glory – and standard for perfection.

If no-one is able ever, to live a perfect life, and no-one is good enough for Heaven – then who will go to Heaven?

The fact is, that all have massively failed. NOW, ONLY JESUS has made a way, for us all to be forgiven – and able to go to Heaven. The purpose of the PAST LAWS etc, was to show EVERYBODY, how much they failed God – and were desperate for His mercy and forgiveness.

JESUS enabled EVERY MAN, to be forgiven, and cleansed – through Him.

By the way, if so much ugly sin, kept controlling peoples lives – so much, then whatsoever gave them any satisfaction, that they could go to Heaven? Fact is, that unless things changed, NO-ONE would be able to go to Heaven!

God loved everyman so much, that any salvation He wanted to give, had to come directly from HIM only. As nothing else could save any of us.

Has any Israeli/Jewish person, ever managed to conquer sin for their whole life, live a totally perfect life – and live well enough, to go to Heaven? How can anyone be sure, that all their sins, throughout their whole life – are forgiven?

This is why Jesus had to die for them. It was out of massive love for them. This was because, Jesus knew, that they could never be good enough – for Heaven.

The reason of the Law, was to reveal, how terrible we are – and that only God’s forgiveness, by HIS way, would be good enough, for our salvation from SIN.

I now know, that Leviticus 1 7, was not saying that we did not need Blood forgiveness. That chapter, was talking about something completely different. It was showing everyone, that perfection was IMPOSSIBLE. They could not obtain perfection, so needed a better way, for forgiveness.

Posted by John Chingford at 1 2: 5 7 pm

Labels: Eternal Security, Miscellaneous, Witnessing. How to Share With Those of Different Religions

John Chingford

An important note now, for you to read first. This helps us have more clarity, over my writings above.

Most of the original essence, has not changed. It is now, that a few words have been changed, to make things easier to read. But the essence, is still mostly there.

I have now changed all the writing/detail, of the above. I now use wording, that is much easier to read, and be understood.

3 comments:

Tony Cox said…

John

Truly an excellent article. Thanks for sharing – I work with several Israelis and we talk about things from time to time – this is a great piece to share with them.

1: 1 4 pm, October 1 9, 2 0 1 0

Expected Imminently said…

John

As I said in my email – cool! 🙂 Excellent piece of work, and so informative.